Issue 5038 - Outline numbering lacks commonly-used abilities
Summary: Outline numbering lacks commonly-used abilities
Status: CLOSED FIXED
Alias: None
Product: Writer
Classification: Application
Component: code (show other issues)
Version: OOo 1.0.0
Hardware: All All
: P2 Trivial with 39 votes (vote)
Target Milestone: ---
Assignee: michael.ruess
QA Contact: issues@sw
URL:
Keywords: oooqa
: 11254 24488 76350 (view as issue list)
Depends on: 70748
Blocks:
  Show dependency tree
 
Reported: 2002-05-19 12:18 UTC by charpen2
Modified: 2013-08-07 14:43 UTC (History)
9 users (show)

See Also:
Issue Type: TASK
Latest Confirmation in: ---
Developer Difficulty: ---


Attachments
jpg showing outline settings (25.41 KB, image/jpeg)
2004-02-09 18:16 UTC, guido.pinkernell
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Description charpen2 2002-05-19 12:18:01 UTC
I had problems with outline numbering in Writer. This has led me to
propose some additions to the current format for text an/or text templates.

1: What I want to do

I have to write a lot of technical reports. Those reports have
usually two main parts: the report text itself, which has, of course,
an outline, and a collection of appendices, which may or may not have
their own outlines. Those various parts have to be referenced in a
common table of contents.

The problem is that the main text has to be numbered in one style plan
and the appendices in another.

A graphic example, both for the TOC and the outline itself, might be:

1 Introduction
2 Technical aspects
2.1 Physics and basics
2.2 Technical solutions
2.3 The current market
2.3.1 In the world
2.3.2 In France
2.3.2.1 Public sector
2.3.2.2 Private sector
2.4 Perspectives
3 Medical aspects
3.1 Basics

[ etc ... You get the idea ]

Appendix A : Previous assesments
Appendix B : Expert panel
Appendix C : Bibliographic sources
C.1 Published literature
C.1.1  Medline
C.1.2 Other databases
C.1.3 Manual  research
C.2 Gray literature
C.3 informal contacts
Appendix D : Technical details
D.1 Solution 1
D.1.1 XX market offering
D.1.2 YY market offering
D.2 Solution 2
D.2.1 ZZ market offerind

[ ... and so on ... ]

2: How do I do that currently.

In Word97, each paragraph style can have a numbering style and a
numbering level attached to itself. Therefore, you can have a "Heading1"
style with numbering level 1 and "1" numbering style, a "Heading 2"
style with numbering level 2 and "1.1" numbering style, etc ... AND an
"Appendix 1" style with numbering level 1 and "Appendix A :" numbering
style, an "Appendix 2" style with numbering level 2 and "A.1" numbering
style, etc ... It is sufficient to apply the relevant style to have the
paaragraph correctly referenced in the TOC, in the cross-references and
so on ...

3: The problem with Writer.

This is not currently possible in aWriter. In a given text, you may
only get the "Headings" or the "Appendices" outline numbering style,
but not both.

You can create "Appendices" styles, attach a suitably  created numbering
style to them, but:

- when using those  paragraph styles, they  will always be at the first
level of the numbering; you will have to change that level manually;

- they will not be included in the table of contents; you will have to
edit it manually to add the relevant styles;

- they won't be used as outline styles  in the Navigator, which is
currently the only easy way to re-arrange  the outline of a large text.

(I also tried to create a master document including two different texts with
two different outline numbering styles. That does not work either ...).

The study of the .xml  structure of Writer documents and templates  show
that the outline is currently defined by attaching  exactly one style to
a given outline level. Furthermore,  while there is a (possibly empty)
numbering style attached to each paragraph style, there appear to be no
way to attach a numbering level to a paragraph style.

4:Possible solutions.

4.1 A partial kludge

It might be possible to create two macroes,  the first one adding the
appendices styles to a table of contents at it's creation, the second
one giving the right numbering level  to any paragraph  receiving an
appendix style.

This would solve the " ease of use" issues (leveling and TOC), would get
a properly numbered text and table of contents; but would not solve the
Navigator issue.

4.2: A long-term solution.

The idea is to replace the "Outline==>Styles" mapping currently used by
a "Styles==>Outline" mapping.

An obvious way to do that would be to allow more than one entry for a
given level in the .xml "Outline" description. However, I have trouble
visualizing how to create a good U. I. for that ; furthermore, it would
be pretty easy (= too easy) for the user to inadvertently use the same
pragraph style in two different outline levels, therefore f*cking up it's
whole text structure.

Another way to do this would be to dispense entierely with the "Outline"
description and to buid it dynamically from styles description : the
"numbering style" entry of each paragraph style might receive two new
properties:

- an "Outline" flag (boolean),  marking this style as an outline style ;
and

- a "Numbering level" property (integer),  used only if the style is
marked as "outline", giving the style a level  in the outline hierarchy.

Of course, the numbering style attached to the paragraph style should be
used for formatting the numbering.

This would solve all the issues  I have mentioned. However, this leaves
open the question of how to format the the table of contents
entries. Should this TOC style be attached to the paragraph style ?
Should it be recorded with the TOC itself ?

Of course, the relevant algorithms should be modified in all parts of
Writer that use the outline : Navigator, references, etc ... Therefore,
this is probably a major update to Writer.

On the other hand, the first solution (multiple entries for each level
in the "Outline" description) is probably simpler to implement.

I would love to hear your comments about this.
Comment 1 charpen2 2002-05-25 06:57:36 UTC
IssueZilla seems to want me to eithet work on the problem I reported
or reassign it to someone else. Since I have no possibility currently
to delve into source code, I'm assigning it to  the owner of the
Writer code ...
Comment 2 stefan.baltzer 2002-10-01 16:34:36 UTC
Reassigned to Christian.
Comment 3 christian.jansen 2003-02-11 16:23:31 UTC
Reassigned to Bettina.
Comment 4 guido.pinkernell 2004-02-09 18:15:22 UTC
This is a pretty old RFE, and I stumbled across it by chance. While I think it
is a good idea to allow different outline styles I simply would like to point
out a workaround for creating an outline as requested in the first comment
within the present outline concept in OOo 1.1.0: See the attached jpg for details.
Comment 5 guido.pinkernell 2004-02-09 18:16:49 UTC
Created attachment 13008 [details]
jpg showing outline settings
Comment 6 guido.pinkernell 2004-02-12 18:37:37 UTC
*** Issue 24488 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Comment 7 izhaki 2004-02-12 18:58:28 UTC
(Copied from duplicate issue 24488)

At present, Outline Numbering allows one paragraph style per level. If the user
wants to create an appendix that looks like paragraph style 'Heading 1', he
needs to use Heading 6 (for example) to imitate 'Heading 1'. 

This make formatting of big documents tricky. Moreover, correct numbering of
figures within appendixes is no longer straight-forward.

Suggested solution: 

The ability to define more than one paragraph style per level. If possible, this
should be done with the same user interface of 'Additional Styles' in 'Insert
Index/Table' (AKA TOC).
Note that a default per level must be defined, so when the user presses TAB (for
example) whilst on a heading paragraph, OOo can increase or decrease the level.

Comment 8 izhaki 2004-02-12 18:59:33 UTC
(Copied from duplicate issue 24488)

The method of applying outline numbering in OOo Writer is very confusing.  On
the one hand, you can achieve it by applying numbering schemes with the Stylist
through use of Numbering Styles (Format->Stylist->Numbering Styles
button->Modify[style]->Position and Options tabs).  These allow specification of
different numbering styles for the ten outline levels possible in Writer,
complete with particular indent arrangements for each of these outline levels. 
This effectively provides a method of applying a document hierarchy with
existing styles: both paragraph and numbering styles.  A great deal of
flexibility is gained from the ability to attach various pre-defined Numbering
Styles to various Paragraph Styles through the Numbering tab in
Format->Stylist->Modify[style].

However, when it comes to doing Outline Numbering according to the Help
documents, you are told to use Tools->Outline Numbering.  In this dialog, you
select which style applies to which level, and you are forced to enter the
position and numbering details for these styles, despite having Numbering Styles
designed for that purpose at your disposal.  The user is forced to put in
repetitive outline numbering schemes which causes confusion - why do I have to
do this when I've already done this elsewhere?  The OOo Documentation HOWTO -
http://documentation.openoffice.org/HOW_TO/word_processing/02en_numbering_howto.sxw
- *specifically* instructs users that when organising 'Hierarchical Numbering'
they must not: 1. include numbering under the tab Numbering, nor 2. choose the
style Numbering in the Stylist.  This restriction removes all the benefit from
being able to assign Numbering Styles to Paragraph styles.  It also begs the
question as to why outline numbering was provided for through Numbering Styles,
when the first thing you're told to do with 'Hierarchical Numbering' is to turn
it off.  Very confusing.

I think the confusion comes from the way Table of Contents (TOC) generation has
been implemented in Writer.  Outline numbering using Styles - including the use
of Numbering Styles - works reasonably well until you want to implement a TOC in
a document.  To do this, OOo designers introduced the Tools->Outline Numbering
dialog which confused 'Document Outline' with 'Outline Numbering' used in
paragraph styles.  For a TOC, all that was needed was a place for the user to
specify, for the TOC generator's use, the *styles* (ie, plural) to be used as
the heading hierarchy to be displayed in the TOC.  So, instead of Tools->Outline
Numbering, Tools->Document Outline could have been implemented instead, with a
dialog simply collecting information on which styles were to apply to each level
displayed in the TOC.  The numbering schemes involving Position and Options
variations would simply be applied from the styles' Numbering tab.  Allowing
multiple styles to be specified for each TOC hierarchy level would allow one
style to be used as a title of the main body of a document, and another style to
be used as a title of an Appendix, say.  The representation of each title in the
TOC could then use the numbering specified for their respective styles.  About
the only option I could think for this Tools->Document Outline dialog - apart
from specifying the styles for each level, would be whether the specified
numbering scheme for each style was to be used in the TOC listing.  This would
be for flexibility for the occasions where you didn't want the paragraph
numbering used in the TOC listing, just the text from the paragraph.

This IssueZilla request to allow multiple styles in Document Outlines is the
crux of fixing outline numbering in Writer.  The utility of very flexible
Numbering Styles attached to Paragraph Styles would not be crippled as it is
now, repetitive entries of numbering schemes would be avoided, the Document
Outline dialog would be simplified greatly, and confusion would be removed. 
This one step could turn Outline Numbering from being Writer's greatest handicap
to its greatest asset.
Comment 9 quetschke 2004-02-12 19:17:51 UTC
*** Issue 11254 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Comment 10 rblackeagle 2004-02-12 20:21:34 UTC
I'm out of votes, but as a writer of books, I find this an extremely frustrating
issue.  I would like to see it solved at the very least by 2.0.  It certainly
isn't in 1.1.1b.
Comment 11 adolfsson 2004-03-17 15:29:35 UTC
Since this issue is really old and very important I think that it is probably
time to at least set a milestone for it.

I agree with the original reporter that the solution is to introduce a
style==>outline level mapping. I think that the logical place to have it is in
the already existing Numbering Tab in the Paragraph Style dialog. There you
would assign an outline level to the paragraph style, choose how much of the
numbering that will be visible, how to restart numbering and so on.

By using that location one would solve the confusion many users experience about
where to add outline numbering. MS Word works pretty much like this anyway.

In short:
 - The Outline Numbering dialog would disappear
 - The Numbering Tab would do what the Outline Numbering dialog previously did
 - TOC UI would not need to change
 - Navigator UI would not need to change 
 - Code for Navigator, TOC and more would have to be heavily rewritten

Major changes are what major versions are for. Is it possible to get it into 2.0?

I'm not prepared to do any coding anytime soon, but I'd love to do a prototype
for the necessary UI changes.

/Klas


Comment 12 charpen2 2004-03-17 18:38:38 UTC
[ Here's the original reporter, temporarily back from the grave (overwork ...) ]

It seems tha my initiol proposal has received some support. ISTR that someone
called "Bettina" had been assigned to this bug, about 1 year ago.

Has someone been contacted by said Bettina ?

                                               Emmanuel Charpentier
Comment 13 stettnerm 2004-03-22 19:11:12 UTC
Another solution would be to allow different outline numbering for every section
in the document. So I could start a section "Appendices" in which the headings
are numbered differently than in the main section.
Comment 14 warnerpj 2005-07-13 04:58:20 UTC
I don't like the idea of different schemes in different sections. I'd prefer a
system as follows:

Each paragraph style must be able to specify the numbering format as well as an
abstract numbering counter AND PARENT or LEVEL to use. eg.

Heading1 could use counter MYHEADINGS, Level 1, with format N
Heading2 could use counter MYHEADINGS, Level 2, with format *.N

etc.

Appendices could use counter MYHEADINGS, Level 1, reset it to 1, with format A
Heading2 in an appendix would be unchanged since "*.N" should inherit the format
from the parent portion.

Finally, Figures could use their own counter or nominate a parent counter if
they should run inside, eg, chapters:

Figure could use counter FIGURES, PARENT MYHEADING/1

to increment inside heading 1's.

or

Figure could use counter FIGURES, Level 1

to increment throughout a book.

Users should be able to create their own counters.


Comment 15 charpen2 2006-04-17 10:51:44 UTC
This bug report was originally posted almost four years ago. 15 months after its
last recorded update (proposing, BTW, a solution I don't really like), I still
maintain both my request and my suggestion.

Any chance to see this implemented before OOo 4.* ? :-((

I'd also love to raise the priority...

Emmanuel Charpentier
Comment 16 cdunham 2006-12-10 17:58:45 UTC
Is this a dup of 3959?
Comment 17 simono 2006-12-11 13:28:04 UTC
I'm dissapointed that this issue was known for more than 4 years and not given
priority, even though this is the kind of problem everyone will encounter when
writing a thesis or a document with appendices.

AFAICS it's not a dupe of 3959, since that is about viewing rather than creating
outline aspects of the document.
Comment 18 openoffice.org 2007-02-12 08:53:40 UTC
A different way to solve the problem the original filer of this issue was/is
facing could be page-style dependent outline numbering?

See: Issue 48487
Comment 19 Regina Henschel 2007-04-13 21:58:05 UTC
*** Issue 76350 has been marked as a duplicate of this issue. ***
Comment 20 bettina.haberer 2007-09-26 16:01:31 UTC
Hi Mathias, I have changed the current owner to your owner. Please take the
ownership of these enhancements.
Comment 21 charpen2 2007-11-07 11:16:39 UTC
Hi, this is the original poster, back again from his salt mines !

More than five years (exactly 1998 days...) after original submission, this
misfeature (rather than bug) has not yet foud a solution, nonwhistanding the
fact that the original submission contained the outline of an easy fix. Various
workarounds have been proposed, non of them being simultaneously compatible with
current use of outline hierarchy (i. e. table of contents generation) and
end-user transparent.

What should I do in order to see some *work* on this issue ? Create multiple
personae and pseudo-voting en masse for this issue ? Mail-bomb developers ?
Troll the mailing lists ? Abduct JS (and SMcN for good measure) and ransom them
to this ?

I even seriously considered to fix it myself, downloaded OOo source code and
started to read. Ouch ! This project is three order of magnitude larger than
anything I ever undertook. Furthermore, I could not delve deep enough in
OpenOffice/ODF specifications to understand where I should aim. Finally, my
development days are way behind me (and my dislike of C++ and Java tend to
increase with time : Im definitely a C/Lisp/R man).

Sorry to make this sound like a rant, but I'd never expect this apparently
simple solution to an everyday problem would take more a few days to solve...

Hoping to see a solution before 3000 days (or, for the least, before I die...).

                                                  Emmanuel Charpentier
Comment 22 mike_hall 2007-11-20 07:49:48 UTC
Outline numbering is broken, witness the number of issues reported. Another
reason why people are forced to use Word. Not acceptable IMHO.
Comment 23 Mathias_Bauer 2007-11-20 08:09:45 UTC
I wonder what the last comments adds to the discussion. Please try to keep
comments focused on the solution of the problem.

Oliver, would you please comment how the current plans fit to the suggestions
made in this issue.
Comment 24 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2007-11-20 09:37:40 UTC
Please have a look at specification "Introduction of an outline level attribute
for paragraphs and paragraph styles", found at
http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/numbering/OutlineLevel.odt, published one
year ago. See also the corresponding discussion on mailing list
dev@sw.openoffice.org started at 2006-12-05 on this specification.

With the introduction of a separate "outline level" attribute, you will have the
possibility to build up the outline of your document independent from menu -
Tools - Outline Numbering.
For the use case given by charpen2 the solution can look like as follows:
For the main text the usual way (menu - Tools - Outline Numbering) can be used.
For the appendix, a new numbering style can be created. This new numbering style
can be assigned to newly created paragraph styles for the different appendix
levels. For each of the new appendix paragraph styles the corresponding outline
level can be set. What I did not consider until now, is that after such an
appendix paragraph style is applied to a paragraph the list level doesn't
correspond to the outline level. The list level would be 1 and the outline level
would be the one, which is set at the appendix paragraph style. But, I think, we
can include the enhancement to the specification, that in such a case the list
level value is adopted to the outline level value.
The appendix paragraphs will automatically show up in the table of contents and
they will also been shown in the navigator.

I think this specification will solve the initial described insufficiency of the
OOo Writer regarding outlines and outline numbering.

It's planned to implement this specification for OOo 3.0. Thus, I've adjusted
the target of this issue.
Comment 25 charpen2 2007-11-20 17:04:40 UTC
From the last comments :
"Please have a look at specification "Introduction of an outline level attribute
for paragraphs and paragraph styles", found at
http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/numbering/OutlineLevel.odt, published one
year ago."

Did that. The proposed solution, which *seems* to fill my original needs, seems
very close to my initial proposition, more than five years ago (verbatim : "The
idea is to replace the "Outline==>Styles" mapping currently used by a
"Styles==>Outline" mapping."). I have not (yet) thought of all possible
repercussions, but sounds OK to me.

I regret that no mention of this proposal was ever been done on this issue
report : this mention could have avoided this issue's followers my last rant ...

mba : "I wonder what the last comments adds to the discussion. Please try to
keep comments focused on the solution of the problem.". Indeed, fanning the
flames didn't *add* anything. But it helped retrieve the (missing) information
that a solution had been designed and the (maybe more important) information
that a timetable had been set up..

Please try to keep reporters informed of your work on their issues ... Their
reporting has some value for a large-scale project such as OOo, and the lack of
feedback discourages reporting...

Back to the salt mines...

                                       Emmanuel Charpentier
Comment 26 Mathias_Bauer 2007-11-20 23:04:09 UTC
The reason for this misinformation is our former process to deal with
requirements that IMHO is totally broken. Our QA engineers assigned all RFE
issues to the user "requirements". Our UX team was thought to wade through them
and prioritize them but they never had enough people to actually do that.

End of September I got a huge bunch of such issues that a brave UX team members
has rescued from the big black oblivion called "requirements". I'm still not
done with reviewing them all but sooner or later I would have worked on this
one. Fortunately we had started working on this anyway.

So yes, Mike's comment urged me to have a look a little bit earlier than I would
have done otherwise - but in general we have too much comments like this one in
our issues and they make reading them harder as you have more work to find the
relevant information. 

Having a look on the issue history I must admit that I can develop some sympathy
for his wish to let off some steam - but I hope you can develop the same for my
frustration about getting too much useless "information". Anyway, I hope all
will be pleases with getting the feature in 3.0. :-)
Comment 27 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2008-03-26 09:30:18 UTC
adjusting target because issue 70748 has changed its target.
Comment 28 charpen2 2008-03-29 11:56:22 UTC
OD, on March 26 :
> adjusting target because issue 70748 has changed its target.

<Sigh> ...

The original poster, again, almost 6 (!) years after his original submission...

PS : Yes, I agree that this rant does not do anything useful. But :

1) letting off some steam seems appropriate about a promised enhancement that
more and more appears to be vaporware ...

2) since submissions with descriptions trying to be somewhat useful accomplished
nothing, I am sorely tempted to make a nuisance of myself, in the faint home
that somebody will indeed do something if only just to get rid of me...
Comment 29 lohner 2008-03-29 12:29:40 UTC
I'm trying to get the 'top votes' lists fixed, so that issues like this appear
on a summary page (see Issue 84530):  I'm hoping that that will raise the
visibility on the most voted on issues, and get them resolved (or get people
with spare time more focused on the features/issues the community is hoping for).

This issue, along with several others there, have been open for quite a while...
it would be great to at least get a current status on them.  Some have not been
commented on for quite a while by a developer.
Comment 30 Mathias_Bauer 2008-03-29 13:17:40 UTC
So let me let off some steam also.

<steam>

Such comments are indeed useless. Developers are working on this problem (see
issue 70748 that was mentioned here) for some time but they didn't finish their
work in time for the 3.0 version code freeze, so it is shifted to the next
release. Before that we developed the necessary changes to the ODF format and
discussed them at OASIS. This was quite time consuming.

If you can do it faster, then do it. If not: please inform yourself and think a
little bit more before you post something.

</steam>
Comment 31 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2008-10-01 07:34:55 UTC
passing over responsibility to zhaojianwei
Comment 32 warnerpj 2008-11-01 12:06:40 UTC
I made a comment on this back in 2005, and since then it seems that counters
have been added, but I also wish to add that Outline Numbering is not the only
problem. I have recently been battling with lists and sub-lists and see the same
confusion and duplicated behaviours that we used to have with headings --
resulting in lists that disappear, reapper, get numbered badly etc. For the most
part this is not OOs fault, it is the natural result of copying a UI from a
really badly designed work processor (Word).

Building on what is already in OO, it would be great to see the following:

 - extend 'Number Range' fields to have an optional parent 'Number Range'.
Incrementing the parent would reset the child.

 - extend paragraph styles to include a 'Numbering Field' for numbering that
behaves like 'Outline Numbering' does now (perhaps a checkbox for 'Include in
Outline'). Allow me to specify the field to use (obviosly). Allow me to apply a
numbering format to this number from within the paragrap style. For extra marks,
disallow me from deleting this number without manually changing the paragraph style.

With these two features, I will be able to:

 - create 'List Outer' and 'List Inner' (or List1, List2 etc) paragraph styles
that automatically behave as most people would expect.

 - create a 'Heading2Important' style (based on 'Heading2') which behaves
*excaly* like 'heading2', including sharing the same numbering levels etc, *and*
which appears in the outline at the same level as 'heading2', but which has
different paragraph formatting (eg. red, bold, boxed or whatever).

 - create a 'Chapter' format that actually works as one would expect 'above'
heading1.

No idea how much work this all involves, but it seems that with 3.0 we are close.


Comment 33 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2008-11-12 09:44:10 UTC
OD -> warnerpj:
I am not sure, if I understood your feature requests completely.
Please have a look at specification, found at
http://specs.openoffice.org/writer/numbering/OutlineLevel.odt.
In my opinion with the new outline level attribute you have got the possibility
to fulfill your requests.

The new outline level attribute is planned to be integrated into OOo 3.1.
Comment 34 warnerpj 2008-11-18 01:26:50 UTC
Hi, thanks for the reply.

I am not sure that the spec fully addresses my, or the OPs, suggestions. I can't
see how it makes figures, tables, lists, appendices or list-of-figures etc any
easier.

It might help if I give an example of an outline as I would like to see it work
(see below). If you think the spec makes it easy to do what I describe, then great.

But from my reading of the spec, and based on the example (below), what I think
is needed is one of the following options:

Option 1
--------

(a) Associate a paragraph format with a specific counter. This counter will
increment each time any paragraph format that references it is used.

(b) Allow the specification of a parent counter in a paragraph style. When the
parent increments, the child is reset.

(c) eg. 'Chapter' could have counter name 'ChapterCounter', parent 'None'.
'Heading1' would have counter name 'Heading1Counter', parent 'ChapterCounter',
'Heading2' would have 'Heading2Counter', parent 'Heading1Counter'.

(d) Based on the example, 'Heading1Bold' format would share counter
'Heading1Counter', parent 'ChapterCounter'

(e) Figure would have 'FigureCounter', parent 'ChapterCounter'

(f) Remove the 'Outline Level' from the paragraph format. It is determined from
the inheritance of the counters.

(g) Add a 'Numbering Format' setting to the paragraph style to set the format of
the current level. Other formats inherited from parent (this makes the Appendix
formats work). ie. heading1 inside appendix would be numbered A-1.

I would suggest adding parenting options to the existing counters dialog, rather
than the paragraph dialog since the parenting should not be different across
different formats.


Option 2.
---------

(a) not only associate a level with a paragraph format, but also associate a
user-defined, named, 'CounterFamily' with the format.

(b) Each style can specify an optional parent counter family and parent level.

(c) chapter/heading style paragraphs are just in one family with no parent.

(d) figures/tables/plates/maps would each have their own family, with a parent
of 'Chapter/Heading familt, level 1'.

(e) Build ToC, LoF, LoT etc based on selected paragraph styles at each level
(manually selected). Allow multiple different formats at same level (eg.
Heading1Bold, below)

(f) Add a 'Numbering Format' setting to the paragraph style to set the format of
the current level. Other formats inherited from parent (this makes the Appendix
formats work).


Example of desired outcome
==========================

Chapter 1. This is paragraph format 'Chapter'.
1.1 This is format 'Heading 1'. First digit is from 'Chapter'
This is just some body text, I wont add more.
1.1.1 This is 'Heading 2'. Inherits from 'Heading 1'
Figure 1-1. This is paragraph format 'Figure'. Inherits from 'Chapter'
1.2 Another H1
(1) This is format 'list'. 
(2) list items should auto number as nicely as paragraphs.
1.3 Another H1 (here just to show how figures work, see below).
Figure 1-2. 'Figure' again. Note the counter is independant of 'Heading 1'
(1) Another list. They should also reset to (1)
(2) ...either inside any outline style, 
(3) ...or by some setting in the paragraph style (checkbox?).
(4) ...so you would define a ListFirst and a List style.
*1.4* The is 'Heading1Bold' style. See the TOC, below.
Chapter 2. Nothing really to see here. Move on to appendix.
Appendix A. This would just be a format inherited from Chapter, I expect.
A.1 Heading 1. ie. Heading 1 inherits outer number from parent.
A.2 ...I guess worst case we could define HeadingAppendix1 paragraph format.
Figure A-1. Just like the figures above.
Figure A-1(a). A format 'Sub-Figure'
Table A-1. Should have mentioned this earlier
Map A-1. ...there is a huge variety of things that should be
Plate A-1 ...independantly numbered, with the possibility
Plate A-1(a) ...of sub numbering.

In the TOC we would have:

TOC
===

Chapter 1. This is paragraph format 'Chapter'.
1.1 This is format 'Heading 1'. First digit is from 'Chapter'
This is just some body text, I wont add more.
1.1.1 This is 'Heading 2'. Inherits from 'Heading 1'
1.2 Another H1
1.3 Another H1 (here just to show how figures work, see below).
*1.4* The is 'Heading1Bold' style. See the TOC, below.
Chapter 2. Nothing really to see here. Move on to appendix.
Appendix A. This would just be a format inherited from Chapter, I expect.
A.1 Heading 1. ie. Heading 1 inherits outer number from parent.
A.2 ...I guess worst case we could define HeadingAppendix1 paragraph format.


In the List-of-Figures we would have:

Figure 1-1. This is paragraph format Figures. Inherits from 'Chapter'
Figure 1-2. 'Figure' again. Note the counter is independant of 'Heading 1'
Figure A-1. Just like the figures above.
Figure A-1(a). A format 'Sub-Figure'

And we could also have a list-of-maps, list-of-tables etc etc.
Comment 35 warnerpj 2008-11-18 01:27:27 UTC
Hi, thanks for the reply.

I am not sure that the spec fully addresses my, or the OPs, suggestions. I can't
see how it makes figures, tables, lists, appendices or list-of-figures etc any
easier.

It might help if I give an example of an outline as I would like to see it work
(see below). If you think the spec makes it easy to do what I describe, then great.

But from my reading of the spec, and based on the example (below), what I think
is needed is one of the following options:

Option 1
--------

(a) Associate a paragraph format with a specific counter. This counter will
increment each time any paragraph format that references it is used.

(b) Allow the specification of a parent counter in a paragraph style. When the
parent increments, the child is reset.

(c) eg. 'Chapter' could have counter name 'ChapterCounter', parent 'None'.
'Heading1' would have counter name 'Heading1Counter', parent 'ChapterCounter',
'Heading2' would have 'Heading2Counter', parent 'Heading1Counter'.

(d) Based on the example, 'Heading1Bold' format would share counter
'Heading1Counter', parent 'ChapterCounter'

(e) Figure would have 'FigureCounter', parent 'ChapterCounter'

(f) Remove the 'Outline Level' from the paragraph format. It is determined from
the inheritance of the counters.

(g) Add a 'Numbering Format' setting to the paragraph style to set the format of
the current level. Other formats inherited from parent (this makes the Appendix
formats work). ie. heading1 inside appendix would be numbered A-1.

I would suggest adding parenting options to the existing counters dialog, rather
than the paragraph dialog since the parenting should not be different across
different formats.


Option 2.
---------

(a) not only associate a level with a paragraph format, but also associate a
user-defined, named, 'CounterFamily' with the format.

(b) Each style can specify an optional parent counter family and parent level.

(c) chapter/heading style paragraphs are just in one family with no parent.

(d) figures/tables/plates/maps would each have their own family, with a parent
of 'Chapter/Heading familt, level 1'.

(e) Build ToC, LoF, LoT etc based on selected paragraph styles at each level
(manually selected). Allow multiple different formats at same level (eg.
Heading1Bold, below)

(f) Add a 'Numbering Format' setting to the paragraph style to set the format of
the current level. Other formats inherited from parent (this makes the Appendix
formats work).


Example of desired outcome
==========================

Chapter 1. This is paragraph format 'Chapter'.
1.1 This is format 'Heading 1'. First digit is from 'Chapter'
This is just some body text, I wont add more.
1.1.1 This is 'Heading 2'. Inherits from 'Heading 1'
Figure 1-1. This is paragraph format 'Figure'. Inherits from 'Chapter'
1.2 Another H1
(1) This is format 'list'. 
(2) list items should auto number as nicely as paragraphs.
1.3 Another H1 (here just to show how figures work, see below).
Figure 1-2. 'Figure' again. Note the counter is independant of 'Heading 1'
(1) Another list. They should also reset to (1)
(2) ...either inside any outline style, 
(3) ...or by some setting in the paragraph style (checkbox?).
(4) ...so you would define a ListFirst and a List style.
*1.4* The is 'Heading1Bold' style. See the TOC, below.
Chapter 2. Nothing really to see here. Move on to appendix.
Appendix A. This would just be a format inherited from Chapter, I expect.
A.1 Heading 1. ie. Heading 1 inherits outer number from parent.
A.2 ...I guess worst case we could define HeadingAppendix1 paragraph format.
Figure A-1. Just like the figures above.
Figure A-1(a). A format 'Sub-Figure'
Table A-1. Should have mentioned this earlier
Map A-1. ...there is a huge variety of things that should be
Plate A-1 ...independantly numbered, with the possibility
Plate A-1(a) ...of sub numbering.

In the TOC we would have:

TOC
===

Chapter 1. This is paragraph format 'Chapter'.
1.1 This is format 'Heading 1'. First digit is from 'Chapter'
This is just some body text, I wont add more.
1.1.1 This is 'Heading 2'. Inherits from 'Heading 1'
1.2 Another H1
1.3 Another H1 (here just to show how figures work, see below).
*1.4* The is 'Heading1Bold' style. See the TOC, below.
Chapter 2. Nothing really to see here. Move on to appendix.
Appendix A. This would just be a format inherited from Chapter, I expect.
A.1 Heading 1. ie. Heading 1 inherits outer number from parent.
A.2 ...I guess worst case we could define HeadingAppendix1 paragraph format.


In the List-of-Figures we would have:

Figure 1-1. This is paragraph format Figures. Inherits from 'Chapter'
Figure 1-2. 'Figure' again. Note the counter is independant of 'Heading 1'
Figure A-1. Just like the figures above.
Figure A-1(a). A format 'Sub-Figure'

And we could also have a list-of-maps, list-of-tables etc etc.
Comment 36 warnerpj 2008-11-18 10:41:20 UTC
Oops sorry for double post; the first time produced an error so I resubmitted. 

Also, noticed this in my example ToC:

    This is just some body text, I wont add more.

Needless to say, it should not be there.

FWIW, I am very happy to expand this in to a more detailed spec if you see any
value in it.
Comment 37 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2008-12-10 15:12:21 UTC
main stuff done in cws outlinelevel.

OD->warnerpj: I do not understand your proposed options. But, when I had a look
a your example document content and the expected table of content of this
document content, then I can say that such a table of content should be possible
with the new outline level feature.
We should create a real document with your example document content and make it
happen, when this cws is integrated. Perhaps we will find out, that something is
missing. Then we can better talk about it and implement it in the next version.
Comment 38 Oliver-Rainer Wittmann 2008-12-10 15:13:39 UTC
OD->MRU: Please verify.
Comment 39 michael.ruess 2008-12-18 14:46:31 UTC
As long as this issue handles the same as issue 70748, and there is already a
spec linked to it, I mark this issue as "Task".
Verified in CWS outlinelevel.
Comment 40 warnerpj 2008-12-19 07:11:01 UTC
->OD. Will verify check as soon as I can find an installer with this version.

My main concerns are that:

 - If I have a Heading 1 in Chapter 1, numbered 1.1, and I cut and paste this to
appendix 1, is should automatically be numbered A.1.

 - I need to be able to define table, figure, map & plate numbering that is
independant of heading numbering, but increments inside chapters. So if the
first FIGURE appears under a Heading 3 item that is numbered 5.2.3, then I would
expect the figure to be numbered 5.1.

 - If I change the top level heading format in a chapter from 'Chapter' to
'Appendix', all sub-headings should automatically change appropriately (g. from
'5.2.3' to 'A.2.3').

 - The ability to construct a List-of-Figures (and List-of-Plates etc) that
works like a TOC, but for the specified paragraph types.

 - The ability to have sub-figures (eg. Fig 1(a)) that function similarly to
paragraphs in terms of counter incrementing etc.

Comment 41 michael.ruess 2009-03-24 13:37:35 UTC
Checked in OOO 3.1 dev build OOO310m6.